Interview with Chloe Liese, author of Always Only You

[ID: An off white graphic with an image of a book cover with a woman with a cane and a male hockey player. The author is also pictured. She is a white woman with long brown-blonde hair and brown glasses.]

Back in February of 2022 the #ChronicallyIconicBookClub was fortunate enough to host an Instagram live Q&A with Chloe Liese, author of our February adult pick Always Only You.

The following is a transcript of our conversation where we discussed all things disability representation, autism acceptance vs awareness, Jane Austen, the writing process, and much, much more.

Transcript by Simone Roach (simoneroach1@gmail.com)

Edited for clarity by @libraryofdreaming

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@libraryofdreaming: Hi, everybody! Just getting Chloe to join now. Hi!

Chloe Liese: Hi! Can you hear me okay?

@libraryofdreaming: Yes, how about me?

Chloe Liese: Great.

@libraryofdreaming: Perfect, well welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Chloe Liese: Thanks for having me.

@libraryofdreaming: So everyone this is Chloe Liese the author of our February book which I have right here: Always Only You. So I’d like to just start off with asking you how you started writing?

Chloe Liese: I think I’ve just always written. I don't think I know, I’ve always written. But in terms of how I came to be doing the kind of writing that I’m doing: I just started a couple years ago sort of brainstorming ideas because I was reading a lot of romance and I just wasn't- it felt like something was missing so often when I read and I kind of couldn't quite put my finger on it. But after a while I just started realizing like I think it's like human reality, like a sort of dimension of that, that just didn't feel tapped into. And I was like, you know, why are their bodies always like so typical, or like what culture dictates is like perfect, or airbrushed? And like physical vulnerability and like mental health – like why isn't that ever a part of two people being intimate and- and getting to know each other? And that's not to say I never bumped into it, it was so rare and it didn't often dig as deep as I wanted. So anyway, I had started just like I had a character come to me. I wrote like in the romantic suspense vein at first I did like a romantic suspense trilogy. And that was just definitely like kind of figuring out how to write fiction, I’d never done that before.

My background is more in like research and like literary criticism. So I wrote those and I was like: okay, I’m finding my way. And then the first Bergman book - the idea just kind of came to me really kind of dropped from the sky. And I wrote it. It just was so clear to me, I could picture it and I just wrote it, like fast drafted. And I just really fell in love with this big family and I realized I really want to tap into how each of them are people: full humans with vulnerabilities and differences. And yeah, I just kind of- kind of kept going from there.

@libraryofdreaming: That's wonderful. Well, our book club was talking about the whole series and noticing how you've incorporated disability representation in many if not all of your books. Um, what led you to include so much of that kind of representation?

Chloe Liese: I mean honestly everyone that I’m close with has- and again this can be depending on… some people don't term certain conditions as a disability and others will, so it just sort of depends on what an individual might prefer to identify as. But, you know, so many people that I love and know and I’m close to: this is their reality. And I felt like as these characters were developing for me, part of it was just like: okay, this is what this person contends with, this is how they live, it just was like any other part of who their character was. It was just- it felt real and full and inspiring to me so I went with it. Also I think it's because I really want to tackle certain things and get them out there whether it's like a friend I know who has that condition and they're like: “I’ve never read that in romance,” and that's just so crappy. I’m like: “yeah, you're right. Let's do something about that.”

So it's just a combination of, you know, making sure that I’m not just like ticking off a box being like: “okay, let's do the little roulette here what- Ding, ding, ding! This is the condition we're going to use this time!” You know? I’m really trying to incorporate it from the experiences of the people I know and love or if someone reaches out to me and wants to like work with me. You know, I just feel like these are real people and I think it's actually really powerful to show a family that has some familiarity with this, you know? Like for instance in Always Only You, you know, when Frankie finally tells Ren about being on the spectrum, he's like: I love someone like that. And I think that's just often how it works, you know? You find people who you sense are safe and those people are safe because they know and love people who might be a little bit like you. So yeah, it's just important to me to show how there's such a broad spectrum of challenges and conditions and experiences and human realities. And it just feels organic and right for this family and the people that they love. Is that a kitty cat?

@libraryofdreaming: Yes, sorry my cat is crashing the party.

Chloe Liese: Don't apologize! You're fine. I have two, I’m sure they'll come busting in here as well. I love cats.

@libraryofdreaming: We’ll see.

Chloe Liese: Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: Now he won't even let me pick him up. Okay, sorry about that.

Chloe Liese: Now you scared him off.

@libraryofdreaming: So what is your your writing process when you're- for example Always Only You is based on your personal experience with autism but there's also- also the arthritis component. What was your research process or what- what work did you have to do when you're addressing a disability that you didn't have a personal experience with?

Chloe Liese: Like outside my lived experience?

@libraryofdreaming: Yeah.

Chloe Liese: I have family members who have RA. I actually have arthritis as well. What happened was I have like a blanket of autoimmune diseases that I got diagnosed with in my early 20s and one of them was it was called something like junior RA or like early lupus. It's just like a bunch of fun. So part of what Frankie goes through is my experience but also worked in with some family members. But generally in terms of my overall approach and how I do things nowadays is I will initially do like a: “can I set aside time with you and ask you some questions?” the person who's lived experience I’d like to speak to first-hand about. I’ll ask my questions then I’ll open it up and be like: “is there anything you want me to know that I overlooked or anything that and also anything if you were reading a story and that person identified with this condition, what would be important for you to see that you would feel is like nuanced and authentic to you? And especially in terms of like intimacy, and trust, and like all kinds of intimacy, you know? Communicative, emotional, and physical.”

And so then I take that information, I draft, and then I send it to them. So that's why I generally want them to be comfortable with romance right and open doors. So I send it to them and then they give me feedback. And if there's anything that they're like: “Uh, I think you need to rework this,” I’ll rework it and I send it back to them again to make sure I’m interpreting it in the way that they wanted. And I do compensate people because this is their time and expertise. So whether it's if they want me to do like reciprocal skills trade where I give them a consultation on querying or writing or I just flat out pay them.

But I just do think it's important to note that you know authenticity sources and readers - their time is valuable and they're sharing a lived experience so it should be compensated. I firmly believe that, so do that. And then at that point they don't have to do anything else. They often enjoy reading it again like in its full form. And sometimes they're like: “I’m good, that was great.” And yeah, that's basically just in general my process now and that's how it goes.

@libraryofdreaming: Yeah, that's great. So we have been discussing the first Bergman book, Only When It’s Us, has a Deaf protagonist and you recently re-released the book with some edits. So I was wondering: how has your process changed since you first published that one?  

Chloe Liese: Yeah, I mean so at first I really- I didn't even know the term like ‘sensitivity’ or ‘authenticity reader’. And, you know I bumped into some romances that had, whether it was like a mute character or, um, I think I read- I read one or two that it had a Deaf character, low vision, blind, and, you know there was nothing in it that would say like: “thank you to this person for getting this information.” It was like okay. And, you know with my background being very research oriented I was like: “okay, I’m gonna go on the internet, I’m gonna do my best and look up this information.” And then, you know, as I was getting closer to the first time I published the book, I was like I wonder if this would be like something someone- I could find someone to read. I just didn't have the vocabulary, didn't know who or where I would begin.

So that was just definitely as I look back it was rushing when it would have been good to just listen to that voice and pause and be like: “okay, I’m gonna just dig into this, I’m gonna ask some people.” Other thing was I didn't really build to where I am or have an author network until I got into the Bergman series. So sort of the irony is that through this thing that was not in its original form and to the level of care and process that I use now – because of that imperfect book it got me to the place where I could be given awareness and have a network of like authors and an agent who I could go to and be like: “how do I fix this? How can I learn?”

So by the time I started just getting some feedback, at first I heard for like for months and months from people from folks- from folks who were just like: “this was so true to my experience.” There are some people who felt like it worked for them and that's great. But you know, when I started to get some people who are like: “hey, there's parts of this that I feel like are, you know, ‘this’ or ‘that’ – this is harmful, this is inaccurate.” I was like: “okay, I’m gonna listen to you and I’m gonna spend some time.” And I had actually become friends with the person that ultimately became my source for working on the edits and revisions who is late deafened and she really loved their story. But I reached out to her and I was like: “I know you loved it in its original form but would you love to help me make it better and work more in your experience?” Because I had not connected with someone who had cochlear implants which is how it is in the original story and I was not having an easy time finding it even through the sensitivity reader realm. And I really loved that she loved the heart of the story so I felt like: okay, this is going to be someone who's going to see the good parts and then help me- like hold me to account and help me make the parts that need to be stronger and more accurate better.

So that's why I ended up making those changes. And those are all on my website if anyone's like: “what's going on?” or they're not- you're not familiar. If you go over to my Bergman Brothers tab, it's just going to have spoilers that gives you like a pretty detailed, as detailed as I could be, a breakdown of what's been changed and updated. But yeah, it was, you know, it was disappointing and it's like sad because it's tough. Like, you know, you say: “I never intended harm,” but what's so important to understand is creators, or anybody who's in the sphere of influence, just because you don't intend harm – doesn't mean you don't generate it, you know? And just because it doesn't harm everyone who identifies, doesn't mean it's still not worth stepping back and examining.

So I’m so glad that I did it and I’m so glad that they, you know, Tantor totally re-recorded the audio. And I actually had the female narrator reach out to me and be like: “it was even more beautiful this time! I loved getting to re-record it!” It was healing for me. And it was important to model accountability and transparency in my heart which is that, of course I’d never wanted to do something but I can also acknowledge that there's just things I didn't know. And a failure to just pause and listen to that voice that was like: “well maybe we should,” you know? And I’ve learned from that. And I thought: if anyone can be- any author who's- who's appreciative of what I’m trying to do and curious about tackling that can learn from where I made a mistake and how I’ve learned and grown in my process, then I’m very happy to be completely transparent and open about that. So that's why I think it's really important to just to get it out there on all the social media and make it constantly available on my website on the Goodreads. So yeah, I’m really, really proud of where it ended up. It was very emotional and really wonderful to go back and make those changes and see how I had grown I really feel proud of that book now.

@libraryofdreaming: That's great, that's great to see.

Chloe Liese: Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: Um, we had a question of… romance tropes are a huge part of your books and we were wondering-

Chloe Liese: Hey, I’m so tropey.

@libraryofdreaming: We loved it, we loved it!

Chloe Liese: I am unapologetic.

@libraryofdreaming: Yeah. And Always Only You is very much the reverse grump sunshine and so we had a question of: what comes first when you're plotting the Bergman books? Do you have a trope in mind or does the character come first and then you go on from there?

Chloe Liese: Yes. I feel like it happens all at once because, you know, for someone like Frankie for instance, this quality of like masking her true self, that's so much a part of autism… for a lot of autistic people. Or if you're someone who says: ‘I’m a person with autism’. Whatever, however you identify: ‘on the autism spectrum’, you know, it’s so often and especially women. They're hiding, but so often in plain sight, what their struggles are. And they also adapt these ways of being in society and in professional spaces where they feel like safe and they have the boundaries that they need to take care of themselves. And so just as I was formulating that really fundamental part of who she is as a woman who's on the spectrum – it was like, yeah she's grumpy, you know? And I was like and Ren is just this absolute giant ginger goofball, you know? It was just like – it's part of who they are.

So I feel like the characters really manifest into the tropes. And so while I know my books are quite tropey, I really enjoy digging into the nuances and the idiosyncrasies of these kind of archetypes that fill a trope. So I have fun finding- kind of hopefully striking a good balance.

@libraryofdreaming: Definitely, definitely. So we're also wondering: what are your favorite romance tropes and is there one that you haven't used yet that you'd like to in future books?

Chloe Liese: This is so hard. I really do love grumpy sunshine because there's just such great banter, you know? Like because the sunshine one's just like: “oh, you're so cute.” And the grumpy one’s just like: “Grr, you’re not cute but you are.” Like it's just so entertaining, I don't know what it is about it.

I really don't like it when characters are like mean to each other which is why like Willa and Ryder’s book was never going to be like a frenemies because they were just way too raw, like they were just going through way too much to be nasty to each other and so I feel like they're actually more of like a grump and grumpy- grumpier. But definitely like I do love that kind of friction of an opposites attract or a frenemies situation. Or like in the book that the book that I have coming in May, it is the closest to enemies that I’ve written so far, you know?

I just like creating whatever tropes kind of create like that high contrast of character disposition. And I really love only one bed and fake relationship because fake relationship is so fun because it’s such a meta-aware trope like we- they are thinking about the mechanics of a relationship while we're reading a book that's predicated on the mechanics of a relationship so it's always just kind of like lots of winks to the reader when you read fake relationship. And yeah that just it's like such a fun trope.

And in terms of ones that I haven't done yet that I’d like to tackle I think I’d like to do a single parent at some point. I’m a parent so I have a lot of like just ground experience of how freaking hard it is. But also because I’m a parent I kind of enjoy my stories not having kids in it because it's just like: let's just be adults. So, but yeah, I think I would- I think in the right situation, the right storyline, I could really like a single parent. And off the top of my head, I can't think if there's any one else that I’m really hankering to do that I haven't yet.

Book four, my last- my previous Bergman book was in marriage of convenience and I had really wanted to do that because you see it so rarely in contemporary. And it's just fun because it does just have these like calls to like, you know, very formal like the relationship, that dynamic that most romances are working toward, you know, possibly, hopefully – we're starting with that. So that's one that I would have told you pre that book that I really wanted to do. And so I was really glad I got to do that one, it was fun.

@libraryofdreaming: Yes, that was such a fun one and I really appreciated that because I have Celiac disease too.

Chloe Liese: Oh, yeah!

@libraryofdreaming: So I loved the Chronic IBD representation, that was just so good. So I did, I’m going to segue into that, I did want to ask you: is there the potential that you might write a book about Celiac disease or including Celiac disease?

Chloe Liese: Definitely. Yeah, so I mean that's what I live with. I will say it's interesting I feel like the Celiac experience now is still hard like no doubt. I was diagnosed in 2008 and it was like all of a sudden I had no idea what the… Well, I could eat anywhere and go out to a restaurant. I couldn't- I didn't know that, they didn't- they were like: “oh, here's your gluten-free menu and it's in a common fryer,” like all this stuff that everyone's just so hip to now – no one knew that, so it was so isolating. So I, you know, I feel like that's not as much a component of my- of my current Celiac experience but there is a lot  that the other friends I have who have Celiac like you just still have an understanding with each other. And I do think it's just another way that- how I always am trying to write awareness of chronic conditions or disabilities in my book, it's a source of intimacy, and trust, and consideration, you know? “Hey, I’ve got Celiac.” Well, when do you tell them? Do you not want to be a pain in the butt when you go to the restaurant? But like you know all these vulnerabilities that come with sharing these things so I’m definitely going to include more Celiac. Done. Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: Yay, thank you! I will be waiting for it, thank you.

Chloe Liese: Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: We also really appreciated the- the nods to Sense and Sensibility in Always Only You and it starts off with a quote. So one of the questions was: how do you choose the epigraphs that you start off each, at least the Bergman Brother novels?

Chloe Liese: Yeah so I love Jane Austen. I love like a lot of the film adaptations. I’ve read Emma, Pride and Prejudice, and Sense and Sensibility and Mansfield Park. And I like love- I don't know, there's just something about those lines that have just- they've always been in my head. And I feel like it's kind of this fun ode to the first book because Pride and Prejudice is a really important part of that story, you know? And how like Ryder reads to Joy and you know, Ryder and Willa have kind of like a fun dorky lit conversation when they're first like not exactly tearing each other's faces off anymore. So, you know, I really felt like their- their epigraph, you know, it's “is not incivility the very essence of love?” is like so them, you know? It was like when I started writing I was like: that is their epigraph. And then I realized there are so many great Jane Austen quotes that I just have like living rent free in my head, we're going to give each person a nod to that.

So I would never ever call my Bergman's like retellings but they definitely have nods. I’m very proud of the couple easter eggs that I have from Emma in the fourth book. And I don't know if anyone's found them, but there's a couple ones that I really love. So it's like kind of just my nerdiness enjoys threading them throughout the book. But yeah, it's just they kind of lined up right and I thought- you know the one for Frankie and Ren's is: “you want nothing but patience, or call it another name: hope.” And it's just like, he's just pining for her and waiting – it's so perfect. So I don't know, it's just sort of worked out every time.

@libraryofdreaming: That's great. Have you read Persuasion too?

Chloe Liese: Yes, yeah. And I really felt like, you know, again that quote was just so perfect for Aiden and Freya's book because there's so much of a breakdown in this- in communication and, um, a breach of- sort of trust and just fundamental: ‘okay, you and I just need to come together rather than relying on ourselves or other people.’ And that's- that's the heart of Persuasion, right? Is that Anne's persuaded by Lady, what? Lady Radcliffe and- and he's struggling with his pride and feeling rejected and it's just like such a great story about choosing each other even when you're really scared and you've hurt each other because you know you love each other, you just lost your tools to show each other in the best way. So it really felt like it had, um, it had a heartbeat, um, at least adjacent to, you know, Persuasion did to Freya and Aiden's story in book three. Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: That’s great. So can you tease us as to what- what Austen connections are coming up in the next few books of the series?

Chloe Liese: I- I don't want to blow it. But so in the next book it's really it- I- I love it because it's a- it's sort of a theme of like… basically, um… oh I don't want to blow it. I don’t wanna- I don’t wanna say anything, I want it to just be a surprise. But I’m- I’m happy with it and I have it figured it out so.

@libraryofdreaming: Okay, we'll live in suspense then.

Chloe Liese: Yeah. I was like: “can I explain it in a way that doesn't give away too much?” and I’m like: “I’m too close to it still because I’m in edits and revisions,” so I’m like: “I think I may blow something I don't want to so.”

@libraryofdreaming: Okay, better safe than sorry.

Chloe Liese: Yeah, yeah!

@libraryofdreaming: Let's see, let me- so, um: what first came to you for Always Only You? Was it the character of Frankie that inspired the story or did you have an idea of the plot first?

Chloe Liese: Again I think it all kind of just like maybe it helps to sort of explain what my writing process is like for me which is like: I see it, and until I see it, I can't write it. It's like literally like if you watch your Netflix on your laptop in your lap. I feel like I’m writing and I’m not even seeing the words as I write them, I’m seeing in my mind’s eye what's happening. When it's from Frankie's point of view I’m like over her shoulder. How does it smell? How does it feel? How does she feel? How does she think about it? How should she talk about it? When I’m in Ren’s, you know, the cold air, you know? The sounds of the skates, the smell of the guys, like it's just… And I think that's where being neurodivergent that's like a strength for me as a storyteller because I’m so hyper sensitive and hyper aware of like sounds, and sights, and smells, and textures so I’m just always like kind of inundated.

So once I picture it – it just feels very vivid. So with like Frankie and Ren I knew- I knew they worked together, I knew Ren was a hockey player, and it was just kind of like – it just happened. It kind of all came together at once, you know? I knew that there was forced proximity, I knew that there was resistance but also attraction, I knew they were grumpy sunshine, and I knew her role. Because it's really important to me these stigmatized ideas of what autistic people can do. And I did get a couple people who were like: “there's no way an autistic person could do social media.” Seeing as I’m an autistic person who uses social media, I think I know, but that's okay like. So it was really important to me to show how, you know, there were specifics of how she did her work that make it accessible for her. You know: ear plugs in the games, knowing that, you know she's really just reacting to what's happening as the game happens. She's not talking to tons of people. She's using the written medium of like Twitter a lot and Instagram where, again, you're just like- you're kind of preparing content and communicating which is something a lot of autistics I know they- they really rely on social media as a form of connection and communication with folks because writing allows them to pause and reflect and like shape it how they want. So anyway, all of that was like- as they were shaping as people with their conditions and their perspectives, it just kind of went (exploding hand gesture). Just like a big- like a big bang. A little mini bang, a little story bang. Poof!

@libraryofdreaming: Perfect! Oh, that's awesome! And I love that visual. So- so talking about your writing process and with that- that kind of visual like you're watching a movie: do you then- do you outline or anything? Or you just-

Chloe Liese: Yeah, I do.

@libraryofdreaming: You just go through and then-? Okay.

Chloe Liese: Yeah, so I feel like the picturing is very much like: okay, I know my character well enough to start writing from their perspective. You know like- it's like: okay, I can get in their head. If I can picture their world, that means I know their voice. I know them well enough as a person to like, sounds kind of weird but like, to inhabit them. You know, when I’m writing from their point of view it's like: okay, I can like step into your perspective and be you while I write. But then I definitely step back and examine my tropes, my beats. And I will often at that point get like a bunch of ideas.

I kind of subscribed to the… I forget what craft book it is, I actually haven't read very many. But it talked about how like it's very important to know your characters’ wound and the thing that's hurt them in life, you know? The lie that they believe about themselves or the world or both, and then the truth that they have to learn. And I’m really passionate about making sure that my characters, even though we're in a romance, are learning this truth independently of their romance – but that the romance supports and the relationship supports this insight, you know?

Like so with Ren and Frankie for instance, like when they have their third act conflict, you know, Ren speaks up for himself in a way that he really hasn't so far in the book. And Frankie has to hear something that she really hasn't wanted to face, you know, and a fear she hasn’t wanted to face. But like Ren doesn't fix it for her, or change her, or show her how she has to cross that bridge of trust. She has to do that – she has to reflect. So I’m always trying to think about like how as a person they need to learn and grow and how their romance supports a healthy interdependent journey of- of self-actualization, and greater joy, and- and healing, and health. So yeah, that's always something I have to know right off the bat.

Then I’ll frame out the plots and the beats. I use “Romancing the Beat” kind of loosely just to help me like with pacing. Like: okay, by 50 percent we need to be like moving in towards like lovey-dovey time. Even if they're fighting like in Willa and Ryder's book, but they're like acting on it a bit, you know? So I’ll kind of frame that out, and then once I get writing and I start like daydreaming all the time, I’ll have things like come to me while I’m driving, or while I’m walking, or while I’m cooking, and then I’ll jot them down and that's when the story really gets filled in.

But it's sort of like once I know generally where we're going, if I have that really clear sense of character and voice – I can just step into the chapter and then it's like it's kind of like a video game. Like you're just navigating. Like: okay, here's something. And there's lots of things that surprise me in moments and character dynamics that I didn't plot so I’m kind of like a loose plotter, yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: So we have a question: where in the writing process do you pick the songs for each chapter?

Chloe Liese: That's a weird one. It's different every time. I usually throw a bunch of songs together initially that I just like. And often as I’m gearing up to writing – I start listening to music. Maybe I’m doing some initial researching. Maybe I’m just like kind of playing around with character profiles and figuring things out and I’ll start to put songs that are sort of vibing with the trope that I’m exploring or the general story that's starting to form in my mind. And I’ll get a bunch of songs and I just usually like kind of put it on shuffle and I start to write.

And then sometimes, I actually like- I just had this happen with one of the last chapters in Everything for You, I was like: “I can't write this until I have the right song.” It was just one of those chapters. Because like I said, it's like a movie for me and there's some moments where you’re like: “there needs to be the perfect emotional song for this moment. And until it's in my ears – I can't do it.” So yes, sometimes like a song is really integral to writing a chapter. Sometimes I’m just like writing, drafting, I hear the song, I’m like: “oh wait, that's for that moment way down the line,” and I’ll just go and like fill it in. And then I just put it on loop. I use Spotify, and it's just like: hit that little replay one. And it just doo doo doo doo doo doo doo (rewind hand motion) plays it a bunch while I draft.

So it just sort of depends on the book. Sometimes that happens more one way where it's like early I figure out a lot of songs for the chapters and others I kind of have to dig around and find the right one before I can keep going.

@libraryofdreaming: That's great. So do you now hear those songs? Is it like burned into your memory of like you're- you're taken back into each book?

Chloe Liese: Yeah, yeah. So, Rihanna's Stay? It came on my shuffle and I was just like immediately transported. And it's still one of like my all-time favorite chapters I’ve ever written is that- is when Ryder shows up for Willa after they've lost the playoffs. And I just started like tearing up because I just remember how emotional that was writing that chapter. Like just someone who's been so patient, and someone who's trying so hard everywhere in her life and things are still just going to crap. And feeling so hopeless, and someone just showing up in a small way and giving her comfort and safety. Like it just… that chapter really, really was emotional to write.

And so the song that I wrote with that, I’m just like, yeah, I’m just always going to be like a little bit of a mess when I hear that. Yeah, and- and a number of songs like for each of the books. I just- it's lovely! I have- it's kind of like seeing when I thought- when I get like a memory on Facebook and it shows me a picture of my kid when they were like two and I’m just like: “(gasp) aw! I’m not in that anymore and I’m kind of glad that I got that done, but oh wow!” You know, just that sort of nostalgia and like joyful remembering.

@libraryofdreaming: Sounds great. In the chat I think, is that a question about how your last name is pronounced?  

Chloe Liese: The pronunciation. Yeah, I didn't tell them because I just don't think about these things when they were like recording audiobooks, I didn't tell them how to say it. I really don't care. People ask and I tell them, but I’m not gonna, you know, I’m not gonna get my britches in a twist about it. It's all good. I’m Chloe – that's fine.

@libraryofdreaming: Okay!

Chloe Liese: Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: Um, so I think we're getting close to the end, but: what has been your favorite moment during your publishing journey so far?

Chloe Liese: I would say… there isn't a single moment – it is the little moments. And by little I just mean that they're like quick in terms of time, or length, or words. And that's when people reach out and say that they've felt seen in what I’ve written and that they have felt loved in that experience like seeing someone like them loved for who they are. That it's given them a better vocabulary with their partner, or it's helped them remember that: even though they're alone right now, like it's okay because they can love themselves and they can wait for someone who's gonna love them the way that they deserve to be loved, and like make them feel safe to be who they are, and- and be honest about what they live with. And so it's just like that is really what I care about so much.

For me my earliest exposure to really positive authentic representation was The Kiss Quotient. And when I read that I recognized myself and I was like: “I’ve been struggling so much with my mental health, I did not know what's going on.” And I realized: “like I’m Stella. That's me,” you know? So it was really emotional and a big journey to go through diagnosis and figure out I was autistic, but it meant so much that the first clue was such a positive, loving portrayal, you know? And I just really think that's an amazing thing, even whether people- even if they don't have any conditions like that, just for us to write stories that make people feel like: “hey, a good relationship, a great romance is about a person loving all of you – not just your great parts, and your young years, and your firmest, tone-st parts, and like when you have the best job. It's like: no, someone who wants you always and- and for all of who you are.” So just any time that I hear from people that they've gotten that from what I’ve written, that's just like- I usually just cry and ball like a baby. And I’m really not a crier. And I’m just like: “oooo!” So that makes it every time. It's like a favorite.

@libraryofdreaming: Yeah, yeah. That’s really great. So I’ve- through your- your blog I’ve learned a lot more about your work with, um, autism acceptance versus autism awareness and I was wondering if you can speak about that a little bit more?

Chloe Liese: I mean, I think to me the point is awareness sounds like tolerance and I don't think society should be tolerating anything in terms of human reality. Like we should be including it, we should be seeing it, and valuing it, and being curious, and open-minded, and welcoming, you know? There's a- I forget their names, but they're- they're people who are in like the business or corporate realm and they have like this saying that like, you know: “diversity is being in the room and inclusion is having a seat at the table.” And so I would say that in that analogy like autism awareness is saying: “okay, we’re aware that autistics exist.” Well, that's not so nice. But like: “hey, fellow autistics,” or, “hey, neurodivergents, please come sit at the table. Tell us about yourself, be the ones to guide us in how we talk about you, and teach you, and culture.”

That’s my passion. Awareness is tolerance to me. And acceptance, accepting someone is really like saying: “okay, this is all of who you are. Like I really- I see this, this is valid, this is real.” And so I think I just- I care about fiction showing- promoting that, like showing real authentic, and positive, and nuanced representation of it. I care about organizations including autistic people and neurodivergents actively when they're going to promote for them or raise funds for them. And I know there's such a broad spectrum. And as someone who parents a neurodivergent child, and is neurodivergent, I know it's hard and it's tiring. It's tiring to be autistic some days. It's tiring to love someone who is. Like, but it's also just hard to be a human.

We've stigmatized these conditions and kind of put them as like these extra specially things: “oh, I hope I don't get that or deal with that.” And I just really want us to have a completely different view to all kinds of disabilities and chronic conditions of like: let's just be better as a society at learning, understanding, including, welcoming people to teach us and inform us so that we can be a more integrated society that sees the strengths as well as the challenges that we need to have compassion for- for all of these experiences.

@libraryofdreaming: Yeah. I totally agree, I totally agree. And, um, oh, I- I had forgotten to ask this question, it’s: have you considered doing a prequel, a Bergman prequel series? Maybe a Bergman Mother series?

Chloe Liese: Bergman Mother, I like it. Yeah, I’m definitely planning to write some substantial- probably won't be a novel, it'll probably be more like novella length- but to give Elin and Alexander some quality times. They're a blast in all of their little moments and in their- that they really shine in the stories with their kids. So, yeah, I definitely want to do- and I’m probably right now thinking like some kind of dual timeline. Kind of do like a then and now. It might change, but that's what I think about when I consider doing it. So yeah, I definitely want to give them some pages.

@libraryofdreaming: That's exciting. I think we'll, yeah, we'll all be looking out for that. And I have this question and I think it might be just too difficult: but do you have a favorite character from Always Only You?

Chloe Liese: From Always Only You?

@libraryofdreaming: Mm-hmm.

Chloe Liese: No. I mean- no.

@libraryofdreaming: It’s too hard?

Chloe Liese: I- I can’t! I- I love… I- you know, you fall in love with every single one, every single person that you're like really- you know, like main characters, and even some- most of the side characters – I just like adore them. So I just really love Frankie and Ren as a unit. They just- oh, their dynamic! It's like one of the most joyful and like sweet dynamics I think I’ve ever written.

@libraryofdreaming: That’s great. So going back to the discussion: what do you hope people take away from your books?

Chloe Liese: I hope they take away the affirmation that everyone who wants love and romantic connection that way – deserves that. And that- that I think a fundamental part of intimacy and romance is trusting someone with all of who you are and finding someone who's worthy of that trust. I want them to be affirmed that they don't have to be or look a certain way to be desirable or loved. And that even if they feel like they've got it pretty good, like I want them to take away compassion and thoughtfulness for people who may be different from them. To have greater curiosity, and maybe even greater awareness, about whether it's accessibility or consideration. Or just having like greater empathy for something that is someone's experience in like their social network.

So yeah, just anything that kind of taps into that like motto of mine that like, you know: “everybody deserves a love story.” Like I really think the genre is the better- for the better, and off better when we really write people who capture realness. And that's romantic, you know? It doesn't- it's still an escape because it's a new lovely place. But I think it's also like I want them to feel like kind of a coming home to themselves. Because I think every single person, no matter how like great or perfect their life might seem, or they might even think we all have this thing inside ourselves that we're convinced no one can love. And I think reading stories where someone just obliterates that lie, and that truth wins out, is that chips away at that lie that we believe within ourselves too. I hope they feel a little bit less lonely.

@libraryofdreaming: Yes, that's wonderful, that's wonderful. Well, our whole book club really felt that way about this book so you definitely succeeded for us and thank you for doing that work. Um, and I think I know part of the answer to this next question, but I will ask again: um, what's next for you and does it include more disability representation? And you had already mentioned the next Bergman book, Everything for You, which has chronic pain and anxiety, right?

Chloe Liese: Yeah, yeah. And I’m coming from the chronic pain- from the specific experience of someone who has joint problems yet insists on playing soccer still and walks very differently the next day. Part of the questions of like capability, and identity, and how we tolerate pain, and how we relate to pain. And there's just so much out there about professional athletes who like… there's just an intensity with which you pour yourself into that. And when it's over like: what do you do with yourself? So I’m just going to be exploring themes along those lines of like: again, just like identity, how we internalize this kind of ableist notions of what we should be doing, and what's legitimate in terms of pain, or just- or suffering, or discomfort, and how to like- how we take care of ourselves.

And yeah: anxiety. And it'll be different from how it’s written in book three which was, you know very much like… well, it's just very different. And I think it's one of the ways that there's like a little bit of like a Ted Lasso homage, you know? We see if anyone's familiar with the show. You know, Ted's just like great – until he's having a panic attack in an alley. And it's like: okay, you know, this is happy people who seem fine most of the time, have panic attacks too. So just, yeah, new ways that I’m gonna be exploring that.

And then, yes, definitely down the line I have more disability rep. And again it's just like whether it's people I know or people I’m hearing from. I’m just trying to- I never- I never want to do it just for the sake of doing it, I want to do it because there's a story to be told about that, there's a perspective to honor and share, um, hopefully with, you know, my greatest attempt at care, and sensitivity, and authenticity. But yeah, that's definitely gonna be down the line. And it varies: sometimes it's gonna be physical, sometimes it's gonna be chronic, sometimes it's gonna be mental or, you know, psychological. But, I can't ever- I will never write stuff that doesn't include that just because that's what I really care about showing because it's what a lot of us live with so.

@libraryofdreaming: Yes. And speaking for- for our book club, it's something that we all need so-

Chloe Liese: Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: We all really appreciate it.

Chloe Liese: Yeah, I mean – I need it too, you know? I- I think because there's such a- like I said, like there's this sense of, you know, I read like a- like a typical-bodied neurotypical romance and I’m like… And yeah, and I know I don't have to see myself in everything I read, I’m not like trying to be egoic here, you know? But there's just like a degree- there's a whole component of intimacy, and trust, and like steps in a relationship when you have a chronic condition, or an invisible illness, or disability, and you're like: “okay, so I matched with that person. When do I tell them that I can't go to this environment because it's way too loud and it will overstimulate me and I won't even be able to like talk to them?” Or: “how do I let them know that I can't go get pizza and beer because I have Celiac?” And then: “what do they assume about me because I’m like: ‘I don't eat wheat’” you know? All of these things. Or: “how do I explain that I have horrible joint pain and I can't- I have to postpone?” But they're like: “but I saw you playing soccer last week?” Like just all of these things that are so much a part of intimacy for me, and not just romantic. And that's just not there in those sort of typical-bodied-minded romances. And I just think a lot of us deal with that. And I think it's a really beautiful opportunity when you write romances to show the bravery and the worthiness of that trust and the courage and the really profound love and intimacy that can come of that exchange of courage, and- and confidentiality, and safety, and trust. And I just think that so much of us need to be affirmed that that's valid, and important, and beautiful, you know?

@libraryofdreaming: That's wonderful, that’s wonderful. And you have another book coming out the end of this year, right? Which I’m really excited for because it's a Much Ado About Nothing kind of retelling. Um, so-

Chloe Liese: Yeah.

@libraryofdreaming: So that one- that's November, right? With Berkley?

Chloe Liese: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, it's um- go ahead.

@libraryofdreaming: Oh no, go- go ahead.

Chloe Liese: No, so it's- it's like I called it reimagining more because it's basically: what if Benedick and Beatrice found out they were being set up? Because they don't find out until the end of the play. And, you know, there's a lot that Shakespeare does do- like that does not fly 400 years later. But I was like: “how can I translate this for a modern audience?” Because I just love, again, like the irony. I recognize in Benedick and Beatrice is this irony, you know? They spend a lot of time talking about how they don't like, you know: Beatrice's men are terrible, Benedick’s women are terrible, you know? “I’m a spinster,” “I’m a bachelor.” It's like, you know, me thinks you do protest too much. Like they actually are really interested in it, they're just really terrified. So I was like: this is the perfect place to explore because they're these characters who have these- they have their guard up and they're protecting themselves which means they actually feel really vulnerable. So I was like: “well, this is perfect because that's exactly what I love to write about.”

So the heroine is autistic and it was such a blast to write. I’m a very uncoordinated person so I really finally got to write someone who's prone to like falling, and knocking into things, and just like being a total chaotic… lovely lady. And he was just a blast to write because he's just so great with her. And Jamie is one of like my favorite types of men to write which is like: has such great integrity and has a little bit of a stick up his butt. And, um, and he cares about, you know, how things are done. And but is also just like a giant softie when he like lets down his guard for you, he's just like: “Simp time!” And  he deals with anxiety, he's like had it his whole life. And again, just kind of showing how people can like adapt, and navigate, and function a lot but just still like carry these weights, and these realities, and these challenges just like always there. And how they make that safe space for each other.

So I have had a blast writing it and I actually just turned it in for proofreads. The next time I see it'll be what's called pass pages. And I’ll just kind of look through it and make sure, like as it's formatted for print book and everything, I’ll just make sure we didn't- no one missed a period or didn't dot an ‘i’. Oh, I’ve read that book a lot and I still- I was nervous when I got it back from copy and I was like: “I think I might hate this thing now because I’ve read it so many times and I’m so sick of it.” But I’ve been away from it for about a month and I fell in love with them again so my hope is other people will too. At least some.

@libraryofdreaming: Oh, yes. I can't wait. Well, congratulations and good luck with that.

Chloe Liese: Thank you!

@libraryofdreaming: One last thing is that I think our- our book club's favorite character was Ziggy and we were all curious: when will her book arrive?

Chloe Liese: It's coming! I actually have- you'll see Ziggy in Oliver's book. She has some really fun moments, um, and she's grown up a bit. And she's- she's on the cusp of some like: “okay, what's next for me? Who am I going to be? How do I-?” You know, those really common things for 20 somethings to be like: “I’m an adult now? What the hell does that mean? And how do I get people to take me seriously? But I’m scared!” And, so yeah, I have a lot of her book- I’m actually really itching to write her book. But I have to work on another book first so I just keep like jotting things down. But I’m super excited about Ziggy's book, it's gonna be a lot of fun.

@libraryofdreaming: Yay! Well, we'll all look forward to it. And thank you so much for joining us today, it's been a blast to talk to you. And, um-

Chloe Liese: Thank you for having me, I really appreciate it. Thanks for running that book club too, I’m so grateful to everyone who read.

@libraryofdreaming: Yes, and thank you to all the book club members watching who have joined in. Next month we are going to be reading The Weight of Our Sky so it's going to be a really great time. So I look forward to seeing you all next time. Thank you!

Chloe Liese: Thank you!

@libraryofdreaming: Bye!

Chloe Liese: Bye!

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